Thunder Over Michigan 2022

Discussion relating to 2022 airshows/fly-ins/exercises/other events. Post news before the event and post your photos afterwards! Please create only one thread per event.
Xray
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Post by Xray » Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:50 am

Its sort of a catch-22 for us enthusiasts and long time attendees - Goes without saying we all wish YAF to do well, to rake in some $$ while its there to be raked ,, But on the other hand, they will likely only stop/modify this show format and exorbitant pricing structure if they don't do well.
Cancellations are the nature of the game, seems like TOM 2022 got more than its fair share this year, and I am not in a position to speculate much on if they could have improvised to fill in any of the dead time. Probably not, for instance they had that nice Aggressor F-18 on static, its not like they could just ask the pilot "hey, we are in a tough spot, would you mind going up and doing a few passes ??" I'm sure the pilot would love to, and would be nice if they could but things just don't work that way. Same with the OH F-16's, though they did work in a few passes at least when they took off for home before the Angels flew. [Heard the tower request that they fly closer to the "candy cane" on their last pass, which I took to be some striped marker denoting the crowd line or something] ,, But that shows they can improvise a bit at least.
Really wasn't a whole lot there to fly in they could, surprised Selfridge couldn't be bothered to send a couple A-10's. Am disappointed but the Blues salvaged both shows and I appreciate the continuous efforts made to stage these shows year after years, am going to have to stop by YAF sometime and maybe catch a ride on the Trimotor when able.

Not every show can be a RIAT or Oshkosh ,, Kinda ticks me off that the USAF sends just about everything in the inventory to some European shows and is nearly a no show for shows here in MI - Look at the mind bending list of aircraft this year at Fairford ,,, And this is actually a bit light for them, no bombers, US demo team or Russian aircraft this year https://britishairshows.com/riat-raf-fairford-airshow
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robert16627
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Post by robert16627 » Mon Jul 18, 2022 7:52 pm

I guess I'll put my two sense in for the airshow. On paper, the airshow was amazing now granted, you can't control the planes bailing because of maintenance or sick crew members but I was disappointed at the time between airshows, close to 4 hours without much action besides the General Aviation and part 121/135 traffic. I do wish the drive in/hybrid thing would go away and let us go back to $15-$20 tickets and lugging around chairs like the good ole days. This year the shows didn't match the $200 price tag but I know Michael tried quite hard to make up for what failed on coming but we've got next year which already sounds like one heck of an airshow according to a few ACC demo crew members. It did seem like the pilots did well improvising last minute to the changes, F4 corsair going ahead of schedule due to the Leap Frog's cancelling for the show, 180th FW beating up the pattern doing multiple low passes and F-16 demo going a bit longer due to Bald Eagle not showing up Sunday.
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FlyRed
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Post by FlyRed » Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:13 pm

Oh what could have been. And yet, I had a wonderful weekend at Willow Run Airport.

The Vampire was great and probably would have been the demo of the weekend had it not been for Bernie killin it in both the Hurricane and the Spitfire.

The evening photography of the warbird ramp followed by the night shoot on Saturday was terrific. Always great to have these rare golden light and night photography opportunities.

It was wonderful to be among good friends and meet some new people this weekend. Thank you all for making it a memorable show.
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ssims45
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Post by ssims45 » Tue Jul 19, 2022 8:13 pm

An interesting video from Tom Demerly that’s starting to be shared across Facebook.

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RyanS
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Post by RyanS » Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:00 pm

ssims45 wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 8:13 pm An interesting video from Tom Demerly that’s starting to be shared across Facebook.
I talked to Tom after he posted that video (admittedly I didn't watch the whole thing but I have heard the basic argument before) and laid out the rebuttal that has been swimming in my head for years.

Airshows are NOT comparable to sporting events or concerts. Sports teams are a fixture of the local area. I can go run errands any day and find at least one person wearing a Lions shirt or UM hat or whatever. People follow sports teams all year round, watch their games on TV, and buy their merch. What I definitely don't see while running errands is anyone wearing a Blue Angels shirt. How excited would I be if I did??? The national 'rabid fan base' for airshows is very small compared to the fan base for any single major sports team, let alone the entire league. Similarly for concerts, you listen to your favorite music in the car, at home, you buy albums from artists and even shirts or whatever. They are a constant presence in your life, and you probably closely associate with a specific team or band as your favorite.

The best comparison I can think of for an airshow is a circus or a county fair. It comes to town once a year (or in many places every 2-3 years). For many people, it's a surprise when it does pop up. "Wow, there's an airshow this weekend? We should go!" The Blue Angels are probably the only part of the show that most attendees have ever heard of. There is no major year-round fan base (how many of us are on this forum?). It is not part of people's identity, it is a one-off novelty that serves as something different to do for a day and little else.

Further, unlike sports events or concerts, airshows are not organized by the performers! Many in the public really fail the understand this. They assume that the Blue Angels set out their 'tour' plans for the year and organize each show like a rock band would book an opening act and such. Of course, reality is that each show is organized independently and they simply are blessed by the Blues presence. The Blues do not book the other acts, arrange the venue, set ticket prices, etc.

Because each show is independent, any one show is also competing with the other shows around it. TOM is 400 dollars for a day, but Selfridge on the other side of town was free and Battle Creek 1.5 hours away was 13 dollars a day. Some shows will always be free (military base mandate) so you will always have this price disparity and competition within the industry. And since most people don't follow airshows closely enough to actually know or care what is performing where, it's very difficult for any show to stand out aside from hosting the Blues or maybe the Thunderbirds.

When you raise prices on your airshow, you turn away both the local folks who are just curious about the novelty, and (unless you have some killer lineup) you turn away diehards who know they can see the same acts at a different show for a fraction of the price. TOM is exactly in this place; many on this forum have refused to attend because they know there are other, cheaper shows not that far away. At the same time, any non-airshow friends who heard about the show laughed their asses off at the prices and gates open times.

Now I am not saying that ticket prices need to be capped at five bucks. There is a need for shows to make money in an expensive industry and we should all desire to see shows be profitable and stable. Just please stop pulling out the "but NFL games cost hundreds!" comparison because it really doesn't make any sense.
Last edited by RyanS on Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ryan Sundheimer
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ssims45
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Post by ssims45 » Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:33 pm

One hundred percent valid! I for one think pro sports and concerts are way overpriced. Don't get me started with Ticketmaster and their absurd fees.

I don't disagree that the cost of airshow tickets needs to rise, but jumping from 0 to 1000 overnight is a surefire way to alienate folks forever. I'd bet some long-time TOM attendees who aren't diehard airshow fans but rather locals who enjoyed an excuse to spend a day in the sun with friends just as much as watching airplanes, will never even consider TOM again due to the gigantic price hike in the last few years.

Trying to compare airshows to sporting events or concerts is definitely an apples to oranges comparison and one that most will disagree with. Something has to give and I fear it's going to be shows shutting down for good when people won't pay $400/carload instead of backing down to $40-$80/person (back to the way things used to be).
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JBavaition
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Post by JBavaition » Tue Jul 19, 2022 10:17 pm

ssims45 wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:33 pm One hundred percent valid! I for one think pro sports and concerts are way overpriced. Don't get me started with Ticketmaster and their absurd fees.

I don't disagree that the cost of airshow tickets needs to rise, but jumping from 0 to 1000 overnight is a surefire way to alienate folks forever. I'd bet some long-time TOM attendees who aren't diehard airshow fans but rather locals who enjoyed an excuse to spend a day in the sun with friends just as much as watching airplanes, will never even consider TOM again due to the gigantic price hike in the last few years.

Trying to compare airshows to sporting events or concerts is definitely an apples to oranges comparison and one that most will disagree with. Something has to give and I fear it's going to be shows shutting down for good when people won't pay $400/carload instead of backing down to $40-$80/person (back to the way things used to be).
If I recall, in 2021 before the format change, I bought 2 tickets and parking for just $25.

After giving away a many freebies to people who bought tickets in 2020 and to people who had Wild Wednesday tickets, they did not even come close to selling out on any show besides Saturday Afternoon.

I hope this will be a wake up call to them for future shows. Especially next year (August 5th and 6th) given there is no jet team. According to a recent Facebook post, the theme will be along the lines of the 25th Anniversary of Thunder.
Last edited by JBavaition on Tue Jul 19, 2022 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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kalamazookid
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Post by kalamazookid » Tue Jul 19, 2022 11:45 pm

It is completely reasonable to charge more for an experience based on the cost of producing said experience. It is also completely reasonable to charge more while maintaining the same quality or increasing the quality of said experience. It is also completely reasonable for us, as consumers, to expect an equivalent or better product when an increase in price occurs - and that responsibility is the obligation of the entity that provides experience. Thunder Over Michigan flatly did not live up to their expectations in this regard.

Let's use the sports analogy and pretend that Thunder Over Michigan's airshow is a sporting event. Ok! In the past, the said sporting event lasted all day and one got to see the entirety of the event for the price of their ticket. If one chose to arrive in the third inning (having less time to see static displays) or leave in the seventh (perhaps missing the Blue Angels), that was their choice. Perhaps an aircraft would need maintenance and be unable to perform (the equivalent of an injury) or a military aircraft was only available to fly on one day (maybe the equivalent of a bullpen pitcher being overused or a coach's decision about a lineup). We can all accept that we aren't always going to get everything we want out of the game - the team may lose, our favorite player may have a bad performance, etc. The entire game, however, was there to be experienced.

This year, Thunder Over Michigan took that full game, cut in half, told us to choose which superstar we wanted to see play, and then charged us multiple times over what they usually did for that half game. Oh, and even better - this framed as our choice! "Choose your own headliner!" Or, if you want the full experience you're used to, give us even more money! Bullshit. It is completely dishonest and insultingly stupid to suggest that either of these half games by themselves were equivalent to the usual experience and worth paying multiple times over what we were usually charged. I am not going to pay more for half of a game because it is hard to sign star players and I am not going to pay more for half the usual airshow experience because it is hard to book rare airplanes. They really expected people to be happy about this? Come on.

Scarcity also matters when making the sports analogy. There are 30 MLB and NBA teams, and 32 NHL and NFL teams. There are a limited number of cities that can play host to these events. I can't get together with a bunch of like-minded sports fans and host the Chicago Cubs in my city. This type of problem doesn't exist for airshows. Literally any aviation organization can choose to host an airshow or aviation event of some type - they may vary in quality, but there is exponentially more flexibility to host aviation events than there is to have a NBA or MLB game wherever you want. Some of these events may not be very good - and some sports teams suck, too (this is why I'm a FORMER Lions fan lol).

If you want to argue that Thunder Over Michigan is the "big leagues" and smaller airshows are "minor leagues," let's run with that analogy. Per the Athletic, the average cost of a MLB ticket is $35.93. Per MiLB.com, the average cost of an adult ticket is less than $8 at 80 percent of minor league stadiums. Let's accept that a "big league" experience costs roughly 4.5 times what the "minor league" experience does. Thunder Over Michigan was charging $400+ for what we could call a full game. How many of you are paying $90+ in admission fees for smaller events? Sometimes, being the outlier is innovative. This isn't that.

Sports teams don't need to have awesome attendance to make money. There are revenue sharing and licensing agreements, broadcast fees, etc. that contribute to team revenue. If the team sucks and attendance declines, the teams still make money - please don't be fooled by dishonest owners who will try to gaslight you into thinking otherwise. Attendance at sporting events has been declining for years (college football attendance has declined for seven years in a row, for example) - yet they still remain profitable because of additional revenue streams that airshows don't have.

Airshows have to make money through feet on the ground and butts in seats. Period. If I were in an industry that was nearly 100 percent reliant on physical attendance, I would be doing my best to make sure that the experience I provided was accessible and affordable to as many people as possible. It's objectively hilarious to hear people talk about how aviation is inaccessible for so many and we need to break down barriers of entry to aviation, then see people applaud Thunder Over Michigan for making what should be a keystone event, the likes of which are often entry points into aviation for many people, more expensive. You can't have it both ways - either you value the accessibility and want to grow your audience, or you don't. If they want to cater to enthusiasts willing to drop a couple hundred bucks on a more exclusive experience, fine. Don't then turn around and bitch about how the more general public doesn't like it. Pick a lane.

A further problem with this year's show was "Choose Your Headliner," which, based on the lineups they shared, turned out to be BS. Choosing your headliner implies that the rest of the show will be close the same - it wasn't! Imagine paying for the afternoon thinking you're going to see the British aviation salute and the Blues, but then you don't get to see the Mosquito fly. Imagine paying for the British aviation salute and the F-16 in the morning, only to not get to see the Lysander or the Vampire (not to mention the exclusion of the Luftwaffe aircraft). They didn't even plan for the full theme in both shows! I'd have been PISSED.

Again, I am completely open to investing in good experiences. The time and money I spend on airshows every year speaks to this. If the cost goes up but the quality remains the same or improves, I will pay for it. This is not that in any way. They deliberately cut their product in half, charged more for for half of an experience or extorted you double for the full experience, then framed it as being the spectator's choice. "Choose your own headliner!" Bullshit.

On a completely unrelated note, if you're paying multiple hundreds of dollars to see Motley Crue, you're getting robbed lmfao.
Last edited by kalamazookid on Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:15 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Matt

RhinoIA
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Post by RhinoIA » Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:02 am

I find that some of the points made in the above video tend to be common inside an airshow organizer's echo chamber, because I can think of several airshows around the country that have had similar acts and performers and charge a fraction of what people paid to go to Thunder Over Michigan. I suppose if you can't get sponsor money to cover the majority of acts, your gate would have to make up for it. I also can't stand it when airshow organizers and industry insiders compare airshows to stick & ball sports or NASCAR for a little different reason than others have noted, and that's weather. If there is a weather issue for sporting events, 9/10 the event either happens in the weather (football) or the game is postponed with a makeup date (baseball). There's no rain date for airshows.

Also, this idea that they had 4 different airshows is asinine. They had what 95% of shows have, They just charged people 4 times instead of twice. Instead of bringing youth out to the show and getting them interested in aviation (do you know how much of a pilot shortage there is and will continue to be exacerbated every year?), they're gatekeeping aviation because their parents can't afford it. I sincerely hope that more shows are not using this model, because it will keep people away instead of bringing them in. $400 a day even for a family of 4, plus concession prices on top of that? No thanks.
Last edited by RhinoIA on Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Airshowlover811
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Post by Airshowlover811 » Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:18 am

My argument to the video is look at Oshkosh it’s 127 for a full week and you can get right up and close with the warbirds and military aircaft and there’s a lot more of them at Oshkosh.
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