Flight Line/Crowd Line Distance Question

[Roadman364]

Last Spring I attended the airshow at Westfield / Barnes in MA and was surprised at how much closer the crowd line was than I was expecting. I hadn’t attended an airshow since Aviation Nation maybe a decade ago, and although I was young and the memory is hazy, I do not remember the flight line being quite that close.

It got me thinking, what major/military supported air shows consistently have closest flight line to crowd line distance? I’m sure there are rules for this kinda stuff, but I’ve since been to a few other air shows and the distance definitely varies. Takeoffs and landings are so much cooler when the jets are right in front of you. Haven’t seen any discussion on this before so I’m just wondering if anyone has any insight.

[passedgas46]

Growing up, my family lived about an hour or so from McGuire AFB and just under two hours' drive to what was then called NAS Willow Grove. McGuire is still around today but you really can't see or get a good view of takeoffs and landings on the main runway. Willow Grove was the exact opposite - it was as if the crowd line was 500 feet from the runway centerline. The base's runway closed in 2011 but the guard is still there. Saw some great airshows there over the decades - wish I had saved all the stuff from that fantastic 1976 airshow, remember the year the kid that punched himself out of the S-3 Viking in 1980, witnessing the F-14 crash in 2000, and the last airshow in 2006.

Another location that had a close runway was up in North Kingstown, RI (Quonset Point). It's a dual-use airport with a national guard unit there flying Blackhawks (and at one time C-23 Sherpas) as well as an Air National Guard unit flying C-130s. They had the crowd line set up really close to the runway and from what I was told by a friend, that crowd line to runway centerline distance was less than 500 feet. I've seen some great airshows there in the 1990s all the way to my last airshow visit in 2016. It was to come back as the "Ocean State Airshow" or something like that under the same group that runs the New York Air Show, the OC Air Show, etc. but that was cancelled. That same friend thinks there'll never be another airshow there. So, there's two locations that had fantastic locations only to either be closed or shut down forever.

From my decades of experience traveling the country, there's no military location that could come close to Quonset Point or Willow Grove. I've seen video from Barnes' show in the 2000s and it indeed looks like there's a close runway. Maybe next time I'll make the trip up. Civilian airshows? I'd say Cleveland. I'd also add in Latrobe, PA after seeing last year's airshow. The video I saw from Martinsburg, WV made it seem like there's a close runway.

I think that's it. At least from my personal experience and from videos I've watched. I'm sure there's many others.

[redtyrtle]

There are for sure rules, but some shows pull it off beter than others. I have been to many air shows. Some have it very well, some average and some awful. One of the worst ones I remember is Warner Robins AFB. The line seems very far away and the runway sits up and behind a hill. So far, the best show line I have seen is Cleveland, Ohio. Something about it feels wayyy closer to the crowd and you are literally next to the active runway.

[CultOfTheWyvern]

The airfield layout has a lot to do with it. For instance, I went to Barksdale AFB last year for the show, a massive aerodrome at which the distance between the crowd line and the active runway is considerably greater than that required by regulations, and as such, many of the aircraft seemed very distant. Conversely, as others have mentioned, the likes of Cleveland take place at smaller, more compact facilities, thus closing the distance between crowd and runway (although the actual display line may be slightly farther away). As a general principle, military bases aren't as geographically constricted as the kinds of civilian airports that host air shows, so the runways will usually be a bit (or a lot) more distant and not always parallel to the crowd.

That being said, if you really want to get up close to the runway, you kinda have to go to Europe. Many shows I've been to there have the crowd barriers almost right on the runway safety area boundary line (e.g., as close as you can legally get to an active runway without causing an incursion). The actual display line is much farther away, as the regs seem to be roughly congruent with US ones, but the takeoffs are utterly spectacular.

[wfooshee]

Sometimes the fence is set back from the edge of the tarmac far enough that the aircraft have room to taxi right against the crowd fence. You'll never get this close to a runway, but having a P-40, or P-51, or P-80, or B-25 taxi by only 30 feet away is pretty exciting! or an F-15 or an F-22!

These were at Tyndall AFB in northwest Florida over the years. which is actually local to me.

[Roadman364]

Thoughtful responses, thank you. I had imagined Europe would be a way around the FAA rules and regulations. From what I see, military/civilian joint airfields offer the best chance in the US. I’ve seen some footage that shows that the airshow in Maine this year will be similar to Westfield, so that might be my best chance.
For anyone who’s been, would Oshkosh also be a good example of what I’m looking for? Videos seem to suggest that and I have long been considering the trip.

[passedgas46]

Thoughtful responses, thank you. I had imagined Europe would be a way around the FAA rules and regulations. From what I see, military/civilian joint airfields offer the best chance in the US. I’ve seen some footage that shows that the airshow in Maine this year will be similar to Westfield, so that might be my best chance.
For anyone who’s been, would Oshkosh also be a good example of what I’m looking for? Videos seem to suggest that and I have long been considering the trip.

Unless I'm mistaken, the FAA does not have jurisdiction in Europe. I would think many other countries would use a few of the rules U.S. airshows abide by for flying displays as a guideline.

As for Oshkosh, I'll get back to you on that in August when my wife and I make our first trip there.

[kalamazookid]

Thoughtful responses, thank you. I had imagined Europe would be a way around the FAA rules and regulations. From what I see, military/civilian joint airfields offer the best chance in the US. I’ve seen some footage that shows that the airshow in Maine this year will be similar to Westfield, so that might be my best chance.
For anyone who’s been, would Oshkosh also be a good example of what I’m looking for? Videos seem to suggest that and I have long been considering the trip.

Yes, this is the best part of Oshkosh in my opinion. It's a massive event that feels small because of the proximity to aircraft operations. Just beware that not every airshow act uses the runways in front of the crowd. For example, the warbird trainer mass formations usually launch/recover on runway 27. Everything that happens on 18/36 is awesome and many of the acts will taxi by right in front of the crowd.

Show lines that are close to runways and taxiways elevate the airshow experience. This is why I love smaller events. Without close access, it's a sterile experience. I will always make an effort to attend airshows that do this well, even if they might have lineups that are slightly inferior to the major events.

[Adam]

Thoughtful responses, thank you. I had imagined Europe would be a way around the FAA rules and regulations. From what I see, military/civilian joint airfields offer the best chance in the US. I’ve seen some footage that shows that the airshow in Maine this year will be similar to Westfield, so that might be my best chance.
For anyone who’s been, would Oshkosh also be a good example of what I’m looking for? Videos seem to suggest that and I have long been considering the trip.

Unless I'm mistaken, the FAA does not have jurisdiction in Europe. I would think many other countries would use a few of the rules U.S. airshows abide by for flying displays as a guideline.

As for Oshkosh, I'll get back to you on that in August when my wife and I make our first trip there.

We have our own European regulators and each nation has its own ruleset. The FAA are a US government institution (the clue being the word "Federal") and thus have no right or ability to write the rules for any other nation.

Massive generalisations incoming, but... the European approach to airshow regulation is broadly speaking more permissive in some areas (eg. energy-on-crowd loops and rolls) and less permissive in others (eg. extreme low level aerobatics, crowd overflights). As far as display line seperation goes, many nations, militaries and airshow organisers have coalesced around the British seperation distances, and they are probably the closest thing there is to a global standard. They've certainly become the de facto pan-European distances, and they've also been adopted on a voluntary basis by many large airshows in Asia and the Middle East in lieu of official national regulations.

With exceptions aplenty, the key numbers are:

• 450m (1470ft) for high-speed energy-on-crowd manoeuvres
• 230m (755ft) as the primary display line in all other circumstances
• 150m (490ft) for helicopters during non-aerobatic flight
• 150m (490ft) for smaller/lighter aircraft, regardless of direction of energy (and sometimes less, down to 50m/165ft in very specific cases)
• 75m (245ft) seperation from spectators to the runway centreline
• 10m (32ft) seperation from spectators to taxying aircraft

So yes, generally quite a bit closer than in the US - although of course it does vary between venues. Some shows, like Radom and many seaside events, are very distant, and others (eg. Shuttleworth in the UK, albeit with caveats, and perhaps most famously, Switzerland's ZigAirMeet) have exemptions allowing the action to be closer than usual.

Australia and New Zealand do their own thing entirely, and their rules can allow for some very close flying indeed.

[Adam]

Seeing as I mention ZigAirMeet, I thought I'd better link to a video...

The first 10 seconds is all you need to see. This is what 40m/130ft seperation from crowd to runway looks like!